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Theoryhammer: Assault Cannon vs Cyclone Missile Launcher

Hurr, hurr, youssa gonna die!

Hurr, hurr, youssa gonna die! (GW photo)

A notable aspect of my meta-gaming over the past couple months has been debating whether or not to phase out my Terminators.  Sometimes they’re super effective.  But they’re frequently hard to get into place, particularly as safe Deep Strike locations are typically limited on the terrain-heavy boards I usually play on, and smart opponents will take down Drop Pods with Locator Beacons before the Terminators arrive from Reserves.  Often the Terminators are left just out of useful range as they huff and puff, running around the battle after Deep Striking, trying to catch up to their targets.  I’m not super interested in meching up into Landraiders to deliver them, so this is a problem.

As part of that train of thought, I’m considering shifting my Terminators from a Deep Striking offensive unit into a static, hard group of defenders around a home objective.  Under that plan, Terminators would deploy just forward of likely inbound paths, focus on shooting, and then step out to block any incoming push in order to stall it well forward of claiming the objective.  Alternatively, the Terminators would hang out right around the objective and be in place to guard against outflanking units and those damn Space Wolves Scouts (which I believe can enter from your table edge).

As part of that, I’m thinking about quickly rigging up some sort of Cyclone Missile Launcher for one of my Terminators (not having one on hand), and replacing the squad’s Assault Cannon with that.  I like the Assault Cannon, but it’s a legitimate question as to which is more useful.  One way to start breaking this down is by the squad’s intended primary targets: Are they for killing vehicles, or infantry?

For vehicle hunting, the tradeoffs are fairly interesting.  Four strength 6 shots with the Assault Cannon versus two strength 8 shots with the Krak Missile.  It’s not super obvious which is better.  Obviously, the Krak Missile has a chance to take down AV 14 vehicles, which the Assault Cannon just doesn’t.  However, more realistically these guys would probably be shooting at light and medium vehicles.  Rhinos, Chimeras, and Dreadnoughts are the ubiquitous examples there, so let’s look at them.

  • Rhinos (AV 11 front/side):
    • Assault Cannon
      • 4*2/3 chance to hit (BS 4) = 2.667 hits
      • 2.667 * 1/6 chance to penetrate = 0.444 penetrating hits
      • 0.444 * 1/3 chance to wreck or explode = 14.8% chance of destroying AV 11
    • Cyclone ML
      • 2*2/3 chance to hit (BS 4) = 1.333 hits
      • 1.333 * 1/2 chance to penetrate = 0.666 penetrating hits
      • 0.666 * 1/3 chance to wreck or explode = 22.2% chance of destroying AV 11
  • Chimeras and Dreadnoughts (AV 12 front):
    • Assault Cannon works out the same as for AV11 due to Rending:
      • 4*2/3 chance to hit (BS 4) = 2.667 hits
      • 2.667 * 1/6 chance to penetrate = 0.444 penetrating hits
      • 0.444 * 1/3 chance to wreck or explode = 14.8% chance of destroying AV 12
    • Cyclone ML
      • 2*2/3 chance to hit (BS 4) = 1.333 hits
      • 1.333 * 1/3 chance to penetrate = 0.444 penetrating hits
      • 0.444 * 1/3 chance to wreck or explode = 14.8% chance of destroying AV 12
  • Predators (AV 13 front):
    • Assault Cannon:
      • 4*2/3 chance to hit (BS 4) = 2.667 hits
      • 2.667 * 1/9 chance to penetrate (AP of 6 plus 2 or 3 rending, probability 1/6 times 2/3) = 0.296 penetrating hits
      • 0.296 * 1/3 chance to wreck or explode = 9.9% chance of destroying AV 13
    • Cyclone ML
      • 2*2/3 chance to hit (BS 4) = 1.333 hits
      • 1.333 * 1/6 chance to penetrate = 0.222 penetrating hits
      • 0.222 * 1/3 chance to wreck or explode = 7.4% chance of destroying AV 13

Assuming all of that is correct, the Cyclone is a little bit better at popping Rhinos, but they’re equivalent against Chimeras and Dreadnoughts, and Assault Cannons are slightly better at Predators.  That’s a tough call on which is better, though I’d give a slight edge to the practical utility and likelihood of popping Rhinos with the Cyclone ML.

For infantry killing it’s again a tough call.  Straight-up against each other, I’d say the Assault Cannon is the clear winner.  Even with the Cyclone’s blast template with the Frag Missile and placing two of them, I would not expect to routinely get three or four hits on target as I would expect from the Assault Cannon.  Most opponents are just too good about keeping their squads spread out and in a nice linear formation you’re likely to scatter off.  However, the Cyclone doesn’t replace the Terminator’s Storm Bolter and both can be fired at once, so at the same range as the Assault Cannon the model wielding the Cyclone will probably get the same number of hits.

Confusing the issue even further, the Assault Cannon has a heavier punch in general, particularly as compared to the Storm Bolter, but the Cyclone ML can get those two strong Krak Missile hits in.  The Cyclone ML also has almost double the range.

All in all, I think all of the above means the Cyclone gets the slight edge, but these are very comparable weapons.  I consider that an example of good game design—two equivalently costed options that don’t have a clearly stronger option, but favor two different styles of play and work best against slightly different enemies.

For me at this particular moment that means I can de-prioritize modeling work on a Cyclone ML for this weekend at ‘Ard Boyz in favor of more critical tasks.  If I wind up rolling my existing Assault Cannon Terminator, it won’t be a big weakness or disadvantage comparing to fielding a new Cyclone Missile Launcher.

  • Houghten
    "Obviously, the Krak Missile has a chance to take down AV 14 vehicles, which the Assault Cannon just doesn’t."
    Unless the AV14 vehicle is open-topped (ie Battlewagon), the Krak Missile can't achieve a Vehicle Destroyed! result. The Assault Cannon, thanks to Rending, has a miniscule chance of rolling on the Penetrating Hit table:

    2/3 to hit, 1/6 to rend, 1/3 to penetrate, 1/3 to destroy = 1/81 to destroy per shot
    With the four shots it has a 5% chance to destroy AV14 in any given turn. It's actually better at destroying AV14 than a lascannon when within range (the lascannon has a 4% chance per turn), though the argument about whether it's better to have the extra 24" range and get in more shots that way could go on all day. Besides which, you can't put a lascannon on a Terminator.

    Yet.
  • ABuonomo
    The Space Wolves don't need to. There isn't a lot more terrifying than seeing some Long Fangs deep strike via pod, get out with Logan - who just happens to be making them relentless for the turn...
    5 lascannons walking wherever they want is pretty awful as far as battle surprises go - especially firing at two different targets.
  • Brett
    The added benefit of the CML is that it will insta-kill T4 characters and below as well as Nobs (especially for mobz of them with a painboy or Mad Dok Grotsnik). I would say the main weakness of 'defensive' Terminators is that they aren't scoring troops, so you'll still need to keep a troop selection back on your 'home' objective. Will you be able get 250 or so points worth of effectiveness out of 5 guys that will be mainly shooting? Why not have 1 or 2 tactical squads sit back and do the same job more effectively? They can probably throw out a higher and more deadly amount of firepower. You can always hide a power fist in the squad to scare off nasty threats. I'd say swap the arms out on your current Termies with TH/SS and put them in some sort of transport option, preferable a Land Raider so that that they can assault without having to survive a turn of getting shot at.
  • ABuonomo
    A question and a comment. Do vanilla marines have any way of making termies count as troops? I know SW can make their WG count as troops, and the WG can take termie armor; I know Dark Angels can take Belial to make their termies troops; I'm not familiar enough with the marine codex to know if they can or not.
    And verse the two, I think the CML wins hands down. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the AC replace the stormbolter, which the CML can fire in addition to? That means at 48" - assuming you have the sight lines, and with a 2+ save, you shouldn't be hiding in cover to lose sightlines - you can still fire, and as things get closer, you get an extra two shots from him, and the rest of the squad. As a static defensive gunline (hanging out with the dev squad to give them support), it is clearly the best choice. The other thing you overlooked was the ability to make 1 MEQ go away with no save. The assault cannon will do that (4 * 2/3 * 1/6 = 8/18 = ) 44% of the time you shoot it while the CML will do it (2 * 2/3 * 5/6 = 20/18 = ) 111% of the time.
    (and yes, I am vaguely aware that that is not 'really' how you do probability, but only vaguely so)

    Real probability...
    2/3 hit and 1/6 rend = 1/9 to rend each shot; 8 of 9 shots will not rend
    (8/9)^4 = 62.4% to not rend in 4 shots
    37.6% chance to rend when you fire an assault cannon

    2/3 hit and 5/6 to wound = 5/9 to kill a marine with each shot; 4 of 9 shots will not kill an MEQ [out of cover]
    (4/9)^2 = 19.8% chance to not kill a marine
    80.2% of the time you kill a marine when you fire a CML

    And for curiosity, because I am bored, I'll look at the vehicles...
    S6 rending vs AV11 and AV12
    2/3 hit * 1/6 penetrate * 1/3 destroy = 2/54 to destroy per shot [1/27]
    (26/27)^4 = 86.0% to not destroy it;
    14.0% chance to destroy it with the AC

    S8 vs AV11
    2/3 hits * 1/2 pen * 1/3 destroy = 2/18 = 1/9 per missile fired
    (8/9)^2 = 79% to not destroy it
    21% chance to destroy

    S8 vs AV12
    2/3 hits * 1/3 pen * 1/3 destroy = 2/27 per missile fired
    (25/27)^2 = 85.7% to not destroy
    14.3% chance to destroy

    S6 rend vs AV13
    2/3 hit * 1/6 rend * 2/3 pen * 1/3 destroy = 4/162 = 2/81
    (79/81)^4 = 90.5% chance to not destroy
    9.5% chance to destroy

    S8 vs AV13
    2/3 hit * 1/6 pen * 1/3 destroy = 2/54 = 1/27
    (26/27)^2 = 92.7% chance to not destroy
    7.3% to destroy


    Interestingly, the CML edged out at AV12, but loses at AV13.
  • tjkopena
    Sadly no, there's nothing that lets generic Space Marines take Termies as Troops.

    That is a good point about the MEQ kill. Similarly, I also didn't think about the Cyclone yielding Instant Death on T4 models. So, yeah, the Cyclone is probably the smarter move. I guess I need to model some on my Terminators now...

    Though, I've definitely been moving away from Terminators in general, like we talked about the way to 'Ard Boyz. Assault Terminators seem pretty sweet, but the normal guys are kind of a big points sink for how often they seem to get stuck out not quite where they should be (and if they're in a Raider they should probably be Assault Terminators). I do think the defensive option I talked about here is a reasonable idea, but I don't know if it's reasonable to the tune of 40 pts a model. That better be one awesome objective they're shielding.
  • ABuonomo
    So here's an idea I use with my bugs a lot, and while not 'Ard Boyz certified good, it's something that is fun to play with. Having a large, big terrifying and otherwise scary unit deepstrike in and just terrify the other player. [Again, my ignorance of the basic codex abounds, but can you mix'n'match termies? Give say, 2 TH/SS, 2 with PF/SB and one the CML?] Then use the termies to deep strike (ideally with the locater beacon) and be terrifying. They will either, A] get shot at by -everything- in the other army because they're close and scary. Or B] get ignored, and be allowed to run amuck in the backfield. The drawn fire in turn 2 or 3 lets the rest of your army set up for the killing blow, or the ignored terminators get to deal it out. I've done it fairly successfully with my Trygon Prime, a whopping 240 points. In most games he's only fired his guns once, dying the subsequent round, but that extra turn to run and assault (or whatever else you need to do) was amazingly helpful.
    Again, this goes back to the conversation in the car about empty drop pods to be annoying and things of that nature, as well as whether or not they get shot up or not. Deep striking only 5 guys into difficult terrain isn't terrible, especially with a 5+ i save. Just think of it as extra armor saves to show up.
  • Houghten
    You can mix-and-match Deathwing Terminators pretty much to your heart's content, but Codex Astartes terminators are divided along assault / shoot lines. Pretty sure Blood Angels can't pick and choose either, no idea about Space Wolves though.
  • In regards to deploying Terminators, I plan to (I haven't actually tried the army yet - it's assembled and primed, needs painting and table time) drop pod an Ironclad down, with a beacon attached to the Drop Pod. If that fails (ie., the Drop Pod is dead when they show up), I also have a group of Scouts with a homer.

    My squad consists of Lysander and 5 ordinary Terminators with one Assault Cannon and one Chainfist. Sure, a full squad of TH/SS Termies is better...but hey, Lysander is the king, he can handle any oncoming enemy in melee if needed ;)

    Can you tell my current 40k list isn't optimized? Haha ;)

    Speaking of which - meching up is the best thing to do. Since that's not an option, go for the Storm Shields. Shooty terminators really isn't that good unless they sit in a Raider, or you've built the list for some other purpose than winning. Which is possible, I know.
  • Kiril
    Keeping the terminators on the defensive is an interesting idea. I can definitely see them as hard to unplug from a heavily fortified position.
    However, I believe that they are far more useful as close fire support for ground troops/infantry spearhead, just because of the heavy firepower that they can bring. I am not talking about deep striking or meching them, but just as a on foot firebase. The few times that I have had this played against me, it really made me change my game plan - namely, all my AP2 weapons redeployed in the direction of the terminators. The tactic was pretty effective, collapsing my flank in a matter of two turns every time.
    The the problem is that AP2 weapons will murder them silly (which I find very annoying). Even though not a lot of people are sporting plasmaguns and lascannons, a single demolisher/plasmacannon shell can and will ruin their day.
    In conclusion...I don't have a conclusion. Playing them defensively is totally effective, just the few times that the enemy ignores them completely will make them feel as a total point sink. Which is a kind of victory, if you consider them as a deterrent (I would go after them only in a capture and control mission).
  • tjkopena
    The problem I'm concerned about with running them forward is that they have a tough time keeping up. If the Rhinos or Razorbacks book it 12", the Terminators are most likely going to be left behind even if they give up their shooting to Run.
  • Kiril
    Ah, yes that would be a problem. Somehow I assume that everybody plays unmeched armies like me :D
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